Ep.4 - Gary Ginnaw on LGBTQ+ Inclusion in Sports
Welcome to Spill the Tea, the podcast where we speak with guests about aspects of LGBTQ plus culture and provoke our thinking about the degrees of equity, equality of opportunity, and the oppression experienced by this community. I am your host, Jo Blomfield, from the University of Greenwich, and I'm your stereotypical gay Gen Z that spends far too much time on Twitter and TikTok, and obsessed with the naughtiest pop sensation, the sugar babes. Our guest for today's podcast is Gary Gnaur, who is the chairman of Charlton and Victor, a local football team that were the very first LGBT plus team to be affiliated with a professional club, which is of course Charlton Athletic. Invicta play in the Gay Football Supporters Network, National League, which was formed in 2002. And this year, for the very first time, they made it all the way to the finals where they played against Village Manchester.
Joe Blomfield:Invicta has also won the Grassroots Football Award at the inaugural Football v Home of February Awards back in 2020. So welcome, Gary. Just to check, is there anything else that you want to add really to introduce yourself to spill the tea?
Gary Ginnaw:No. Thanks for having us. I'm I'm sure that's fine for the time being.
Joe Blomfield:Nice. Cool. Well, we can jump straight in. And I think firstly, I do just wanna say a huge well done again for getting to the finals, of the GFSN Cup.
Gary Ginnaw:That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Cup. Yep.
Gary Ginnaw:Cup. What does
Joe Blomfield:it feel like to be in the finals this year?
Gary Ginnaw:Yeah. Yeah. No. Obviously, massive thanks for having us on. Obviously, I can talk all things football and LGBTQ plus, and maybe not so much sugar babes, but, Shane.
Gary Ginnaw:Yeah. The GFSN Cup this year, fantastic achievement to reach the final. We've been playing in in the the cup itself since, 2015. And I remember our first game was actually my first game in manager as manager. And, we had a away game against a team called Birmingham Blaze.
Gary Ginnaw:Really, really tough game. We traveled up for the game with a minibus that left from Dartford Heath. You know, sounds thrilling as it is. We was actually one player short, who had not met made it made it to the mini bus for the time. So we actually drove around to his house and banged him out of bed.
Gary Ginnaw:Brilliant. Chucked him in the back of the minibus and let him sleep on the way up. We lost that one six one. So great journey back. Yeah.
Gary Ginnaw:So we've always had difficult, games in the cup. You know, everyone always talks about, you know, the luck of the draw. We had the team from Glasgow sort our thistle away 2 consecutive years running in the 1st round, lost 6 1 and 7 nil. So, you know, again, really, really tough game. So this season, we entered the cup, with just a an aim of just in enjoying it.
Gary Ginnaw:You know, whatever happens happens. Not taking it too seriously. We got our first ever home draw, which was Nottingham Lions, in September. We managed to win that 131. Got to the quarter final stage.
Gary Ginnaw:Birmingham Blaze were hosting all the quarter finals. So again, we had to go up there for for a weekend in Birmingham, and we got drawn against Birmingham Blades. So we kind of expected that we might not get through. Hosts, you know, taking it quite seriously. We expected it to be a tough game.
Gary Ginnaw:I actually missed that quarter final because I was in Athens, running the marathon that weekend. Nice. So I had to trust everybody to go, win, behave, keep you posted. And, I think so it's on the Saturday night the marathon was on the Sunday or Saturday afternoon. I remember we just sat down for dinner and, you can see the Acropolis in the distance.
Gary Ginnaw:Nice nice Greek meal we were having. And the WhatsApp messages were coming through to keep me updated on on the on the game. And Victor go 1 new up, 2 new up, 3 new up, 4 new up at half time. I'm like, right, I can relax. Let's enjoy dinner.
Gary Ginnaw:2nd half starts, 4 1, 4 2, 4 3. Birmingham have a red card. Everything's going off. And then there was like a massive sort of 20, 25 minute delay before the result came in. Oh, that's So I was like, oh, they've equalized.
Gary Ginnaw:It's gone to extra time. It's gone to penalties. So we must have lost the game. No one's messaging because it's embarrassing. So we held on for a 4 three win.
Gary Ginnaw:Bit of excitement with a with a semifinal draw because we got drawn against Millwall Romans. So obviously, a little bit of a Southeast London Yeah. Derby. A bit of a rivalry, and, we played that game. Had to wait a long time.
Gary Ginnaw:We played that game in April. Wow. And, again, didn't wanna take it too seriously. We've always played the the GFC games with a bit of a mixed, ability group, like whoever wants to play really and enjoy it. We were tuning up at halftime, and, looked quite comfortable.
Gary Ginnaw:Naturally, second half comes around, they score after the restart, and then we're holding on for a 21. And then I would say probably 2 minutes left, they equalize. Wow. Finishes 22. So it's a bit of a pattern of us giving away leads in the cup.
Gary Ginnaw:And then we're gonna penalty shoot out in dramatic style. So the celebrations and the reactions of that that point was was was really, you know, everyone was really excited and, just looking forward to, obviously, to get to the final, which was which was played last weekend and, we sadly lost. But, you know, great achievement to make the final.
Joe Blomfield:Absolutely. It's incredible. As someone that does not play football at all, I was very impressed still. So huge well done. And how did you originally get involved with Charlton and Victor?
Joe Blomfield:Because you said you've been there since 20
Gary Ginnaw:14.
Joe Blomfield:2014. Wow. And how was how do you sort of find the club? If you could tell us a bit more sort of about your journey to from starting to also becoming sort chairman.
Gary Ginnaw:Yeah. So, I I suppose sort of without without being I don't wanna just talk for hours about it because I probably could. Yeah. If I go right way back, love, I've been a football fan since school, like, as far back as I can remember. I mean, I remember having the 1990 England football replica kit at school when I probably couldn't even kick a ball.
Gary Ginnaw:So I would've been, like, 7, 8 at the time. And I've always I've always played football at school, you know, trial for the school teams, played in the program, lunchtime, after school, etcetera. All All through the summer holidays, I always used to play football, all the way through school life. And then I guess it's that sort of, you know, 13, 14, 15 sort of time when, sort of struggling to come to terms with who I was, you know, through the nineties wasn't particularly fun. And I went to an all boys school as well.
Gary Ginnaw:So the fact that I survived that is is is, an achievement in itself.
Joe Blomfield:I am also a boys school, survivor, so I can feel that. Uh-huh. Very
Gary Ginnaw:relatable. And I think I just, like, when I when I left school, it was just a case of, okay, well, kind of football kind of stops now. Because unless you go and join a Sunday league team, there isn't really there is nowhere else. Mhmm. So I just stopped playing and kinda just removed myself from it.
Gary Ginnaw:I was still a Charlton fan. I still went and watched, China Olympic Games. But when I'm watching games at the Valley, people just see me as another fan. Mhmm. You know?
Gary Ginnaw:I'm not Gary the gay boy or Gary the gay footballer or whatever it might be. So, I think it was easier to kinda just blend in and hide yourself Yeah. In the stadium. Whereas, obviously, playing, you know, the longer you play for a team, people get to know you, they wanna know about your personal life, you know, why you're not dating girls, why is it we never see you with a girl, you know, oh, she fancies you, why don't we hook you up with her, that sort of stuff. I didn't really wanna be that environment.
Gary Ginnaw:So I just just stay away from it, really. And, it was only so summer 2013, so I just turned 30, mass midlife crisis. Good. Broke up with my partner, moved back home. Big time.
Gary Ginnaw:And, Yeah. And I I had a semi, I suppose, sort of bounce back relationship for a few months that ended terribly. And I was just in I remember just I was sitting on my bed at my parents' one Sunday afternoon, and I was just, like, I need to I need to do something to sort of grow my friendship network. I need to get back into, you know, with like minded people. And I was just having a look at, like, some Sunday I was just having a look at, like, some Sunday league football teams, and I was just browsing the the Internet.
Gary Ginnaw:And, I came across this team called Bexley and Victor. Didn't really know what it was, but, like, the headline sort of stood out to me because, you know, they'd sort of advertised themselves as, like, a gay friendly, football team. And I was like, okay. That could be that could be something different. I've never heard of it before.
Gary Ginnaw:And I just reached out, and I was chatting to their, membership, officer, who I'm actually still friends with now. And he kept on telling me to come down like it's really mixed ability. You know, you know, we play football. We socialize. We go for drinks.
Gary Ginnaw:We have away trips. And I didn't actually go along to a training session until the following summer. So because I just didn't know what to expect. Like, I could I know I could play football, but I just didn't know what it was gonna be like. No one likes being a new person.
Gary Ginnaw:Yeah. You know, meeting new people and, and trying to fit in. So I think that was a big step for me when I finally went along to to a training session, and had a great season, 1st year playing, obviously, still Bexley and Victor at the time. We had a an end of season trip that summer, in Hamburg, which was great fun. Nice.
Gary Ginnaw:And then over the course of that following summer, so summer of 2015, the manager and the chairman both decided to to sort of call it a day, and they were looking for somebody to take over. And I was 32 at the time, so I still have I mean, I say I still had a few years. I'm still waiting, so it's been quite a few years. But I just I wanted to get into coaching, so I just thought, okay. Look.
Gary Ginnaw:I'll sort of throw my name in, not really expecting anyone to pick me. And I kind of went along with it for a bit, and we had the worst 8 months in history of football, I'm sure. Like, I think we lost their first 11 games. Oh, yes. And Players that had been around for a bit, not so much had got style, but it was like it's a lot of commitment, you know, a lot travel, and, so we went through a period of really struggling to get players to come and play games, to come to training.
Gary Ginnaw:Finances were low, you know, and the the whole club just needed a bit of a lift, really. And hence, obviously, we started talking to China Fair Community Trust to get some support from them, started training at the training ground and playing our home games. And so we just sort of had this sort of, this stable home to try and build from, and, step so I can obviously, at the time, I was the manager of team. I decided after the 2nd lockdown, which was definitely the hardest lockdown for me Yeah. That I was gonna step down at the end of the season as manager, but just still stay on playing in in some sort of capacity.
Gary Ginnaw:I was elected as chair in 2,022, So I've had 2 seasons as chair, and, you know, I just wanna I just wanna make sure that the club continues to make that positive difference that it has done to so many players, including myself, because I wouldn't be the person I am today if it not been for the last 10 years of of being part of the the team. So, I wanna make sure we continue to make that that difference.
Joe Blomfield:Sounds incredible. And, actually, talking about the team, can you tell us a bit more how many members are in the team? How many members do you have? What is that sort of inclusive environment? How do you sort of sustain that?
Gary Ginnaw:Yeah. So we've got, I think at the moment, I was looking through I'm sure we we've had, like, about 55 players that have played this season. Wow. So it's definitely been the largest number we've ever had. Numbers of training are up.
Gary Ginnaw:You know, we've been sort of averaging over 25 people training every week, which is which is really hard for us to to do. And I know, like, if we go back a couple of years ago, sometimes we were struggling for sort of 10 or 12 people. Mhmm. So, you know, numbers have been really, really good this season. We've got 2 teams running in the London Unity League on a Sunday afternoon as well as our Saturday, GFSN team.
Gary Ginnaw:So, you know, we do try and offer as much football opportunities as possible to to members of the community. The membership is actually split, so there's probably about a 5050 split between people that identified l LGBTQ plus and and and obviously your your sort of heterosexual allies that that just wanna play football in an inclusive environment. Mhmm. In terms of the sort of environment that we've got, I do look back I do look back every often. I'm I am quite one to sort of sit back and think, god, this is really special.
Gary Ginnaw:Mhmm. And, you know, there are times when I think to myself, you know, we don't do anything we don't do anything in particular. We just we just welcome every every single person that comes through those gates. We treat them as just a human being, you know, and you wanna get to know them like you would any other player. You know, we use pronouns, you know, we we do an introduction when when new players come along to training.
Gary Ginnaw:We run through the group names and pronouns, maybe the football team you you you support, maybe a fun fact about yourself. Those sort of things, which sounds sounds really small, but it just helps people, you know, people just come in and just feel comfortable. Yeah. And, you know, conversations are had, people start talking, then we get into, like, football and people take it really seriously. And, you know, you see people in a different light.
Gary Ginnaw:And so I think that's the most important thing for me is people just coming through and just being able to be authentic from day 1. Mhmm. You know, which I never had when I was that age. You know, when I was, you know, if I'd come into a football team at 20 or 21, there's no way in a 1000000 years I would have been able to be authentically me. Mhmm.
Gary Ginnaw:I didn't even know what that would have been at that time. So I think that's really, really important. And, you know, that's the that's the environment that we've we've managed to create without really trying to, if that makes sense.
Joe Blomfield:Yeah. Definitely. I think that actually does do so much in terms of actually just setting the expectation of when you come through the door that there is no expectations of what you should be or who you should be. That makes such an impact. So just if you know you're going into a space that is inclusive by design, I think it really helps you to actually just relax into it.
Joe Blomfield:Whereas, if you're not sure and I think I think about it when starting a new job. Like, companies can you can will say they're inclusive. But, actually, if you can see the work they do Yeah. And then, actually, you can just relax into it and think, I can go into this being my authentic self and that is fine. It does make a huge difference.
Gary Ginnaw:Yeah. And I think that's like having the 2 teams this season in the in the LUL. So we've got a division 1 team, which is, like, super competitive. Yeah. And then we've got a division 2 team, which is a little bit more inclusive.
Gary Ginnaw:And what I mean by that, we're still competitive, obviously. Yeah. It's football. We step on the pitch. We wanna we wanna win.
Joe Blomfield:Absolutely.
Gary Ginnaw:But I just mean that it's a bit more we're trying to get everybody involved, you know, everyone's gonna get some minutes. Yeah. Just trying to give new players or players that haven't played football for a while the opportunity to get back into competitive without it being too difficult. You know, we're all going down the pub whether we won or lost afterwards, you know, so it's a little bit more fun. And I guess it's getting back to the division 2 team has sort of got back to, like, the old days of when the club was first set up, whereas we don't it's not that we don't mind if we lose.
Gary Ginnaw:Yeah. But if we know we're gonna lose, we're still gonna go out and celebrate after this.
Joe Blomfield:Still gonna enjoy it.
Gary Ginnaw:Yeah. Exactly. And
Joe Blomfield:And it's enjoying it for what it is rather than for the victory.
Gary Ginnaw:Definitely. And and and both teams train together. So it's not like it's an us and a them. You know, when we run training, it's just a mix of whoever's whoever's down to train that night. So I think there's, you know, I'm obviously, I'm gonna be proud of it and I'm, you know, I've got my
Joe Blomfield:As it should've been.
Gary Ginnaw:Red tinty glasses on when I when I talk about Invicta all the time. But there is something really, really special on a Tuesday night at the training ground when you've got a mix of of, like, a real diverse group from within the local area. Because I'd say most of our players probably live within maybe, I don't know, a 10 mile radius of the training ground. Like, it's really a community group, and everyone's different, and everyone just everyone just gets on with it on trains and plays, and it's Yeah. Such a good, you know.
Gary Ginnaw:And I don't think, I don't think other clubs outside of Invicta probably realize just how quirky that is Yeah. Within that local area, you know. So that's something I've always been really proud of. But Actually, it should be.
Joe Blomfield:I know. As I've said and I think it's it's really nice seeing it. Obviously, we've I've known you for a while now, and it's nice even just being able to hear it the more you talk about it. You can hear always how proud of you are of Invicta, and I think you should be. I think everything you do is amazing, and it's why we're really keen to get you
Gary Ginnaw:on today. Yes. Thank you.
Joe Blomfield:And why do you think it is important still today that there are football teams that exist that are openly sort of LGBT plus inclusive? Is there a particular reason that really sort stands out to you?
Gary Ginnaw:Yeah. I get asked this question a lot, because I think if you'd asked me that, even probably 6, 7 years ago, I would have said that it would be great if we didn't need LGBTQ bus football teams Mhmm. Or or sports teams teams in general, and, you know, everyone could just go and play for any team they wanted to, any Sunday league team and just be it just wouldn't be an issue, it wouldn't be a thing. But the more maybe this the older I get, the more I sort of look back and I think there are people out there that really need that space. They still they will still need that space.
Gary Ginnaw:You know, I might be able to go and join a Sunday league team and we've played against Sunday league teams, in some of our Kent FA competitions in in recent years, and I could probably go in there now being a bit older and just just get on with it. Mhmm. But there are people that that wouldn't be able to do that. So I think the teams are still really, really needed. The league's needed, you know, to have an LGBTQ plus league, and I think that's the keyword is, you know, we've we've evolved from the days of, like, when I first found Invicta, it was gay friendly or gay inclusive.
Gary Ginnaw:It's it's not about gay men. Now we've we've gone past that. You know, it has to be every person from the community being welcoming that team. And, you know, when we touch on trans inclusion in particular over the age of 16, you know, mixed ability football is not allowed in an affiliated league. So, you know, if if the if the LUL the GFSN weren't in existence, then, you know, you either play men's football or you play women's football.
Gary Ginnaw:Mhmm. And so those spaces are fundamental and are so important and, you know, I I I mention it a lot from from our point of view that, you know, we probably had I think we might have had 1 female player in the 1st couple of years at Invicta that that played a few games. Up other than that, we were pretty much what what the team was defined as then as a gay inclusive football team. We were a men's football team that just happened to have gay players, bisexual players, and straight players. We then evolved without really trying.
Gary Ginnaw:You without really trying. You know, when our first trans player got in touch, I'm sure she won't mind me mentioning Naomi Reid, great great footballer, Leeds fan, but, you know, great footballer, great friend, you know, massive pillar of of the club in, you know, that sort of 2018 to 2022 period. She was, you know, I I talk about this a lot. I'm going off the subject now. But, you know, I had these 2 people that were, like, my sort of support pillars, Sam, my partner, and Naomi, because they just they got everything about the club, not so much from a football perspective, but from the what the club means to the community.
Gary Ginnaw:Yeah. You know, and yeah. So, like, Naomi joined and all all of a sudden, we were learning things that you know, I've never met, a trans person before, let alone a trans footballer. So really good conversations. And then so if I've never if I'd never understood, you know, the struggles that the community goes through, the trans community goes through, how is one of our straight players who's probably never under would never have understood what I went through when I was young.
Gary Ginnaw:So, you know, we're we're having those conversations and we're learning. So, I think from a trans perspective, LGBTQ plus inclusive football is so, so important. The clubs, the leagues, just the environment, you know, and I think that's that's one fundamental why until the FA changed their over 16th policy of mixed football, those teams in those leagues, they they can't go anywhere.
Joe Blomfield:That's really interesting. I was gonna say someone that isn't sort of an avid football fan is something that I'd, again, not thought about, and actually why these conversations are so important. So I definitely agree that actually moving forward is, again, it's keeping this dialogue Yeah. And keeping that learning throughout the experience is so important. And before, actually, we we'll come back to sort of education and sort of trans inclusion again later in the podcast.
Joe Blomfield:But just to wrap up this section, what would you say has been your favorite part about being in an LGBT football team?
Gary Ginnaw:Gosh. What's been my favorite part? Wow. That's that's a I don't think anyone's ever asked me that, so you've absolutely stumped me.
Joe Blomfield:Smashed it. So where is it?
Gary Ginnaw:Go mate. Gosh. Favorite part? Do you know what? I think I think just the like, making friends, the camaraderie Mhmm.
Gary Ginnaw:You know, and, you know, we had we had one really difficult season. I mean, like, when I first took over, it was difficult, but I don't think we weren't really a group of friends then. We didn't really socialize like we do now, and I know we had a really difficult season through 2019, and we lost all but one game, but we went out every single post game. We went drinks. We went bowling.
Gary Ginnaw:We went to the pub, whatever it was. And I think that was just so so because we didn't we just didn't care whether we won a game football. We were still gonna turn up the week after and try again. So that season was really good fun, and and, obviously, the away trips, in the GFSN, in the GFSN, you know, like, we've been to in the last, I don't know, 7 or 8 years, we've had we've had trips in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dublin, Manchester, Liverpool, Bristol, Nottingham, Birmingham. You know, we go all over.
Gary Ginnaw:Yeah. And, you know, it might only be sort of 12 or 13 players going, but we socialize with the other team as well. And that's so unique for for grassroots football because, usually, you know, the team's arrival's on the pitch and then they just that's it. We're done. Yeah.
Gary Ginnaw:But to to know that you're gonna go out afterwards and that the the, obviously, the home team will host the away team. And we have had so many great nights. I mean, we've been in Glasgow 5 times since 2018, and we've got such a good rapport with that team. No. Which is which is really unique.
Gary Ginnaw:So you make you do make friendships, not only within the club, but within the rest of the league and the network. You make friends, and I think that's something that's, that's always been quite fun, and I'm sure I'll look back at one day and think, oh, I really miss those days.
Joe Blomfield:Nice. I'm sure you've got a long time before that happens. And then one of the areas, so of, we've already started talking about, is football and the culture of what I would say is more stereotypical views of football. So when I think of football, the how I view it is something that is or can be quite toxic. And I say can be because actually, we've this is a tangent already.
Joe Blomfield:But as you know, I went to my first actual Charleston Athletic match issue, and I realized that even my own perceptions, were just based on how I thought football would be. And because of sort of past experiences when I was a teenager that actually then I was projecting into something. But there are still sort of big discussions around homophobia and football as a whole, and things that are being done in this space to try and sort of combat homophobia. And there are some statistics show that 7 in 10 football fans who have attended a match have either heard or witnessed homophobia. Is there anything on that that you think clubs could be doing to prevent homophobia?
Joe Blomfield:But also, is there anything that clubs are doing that actually people who aren't football fans might not realize?
Gary Ginnaw:Yeah. Definitely. I mean, I think it's a really interesting, from from a a supporter perspective. And I think the, the a supporter perspective. And I think the the the one thing that I've seen in the last decade is the number of LGBTQ plus football supporters groups that are affiliated to their to their local club that have that have been set up.
Gary Ginnaw:And I think I don't know the numbers now, but, you know, most of the 90 2 clubs in England have have got a group. I mean, that or at least an element of of LGBTQ plus supporters that are that are visible. So I think that's really important for the clubs to get behind behind those groups, to actively promote them and and give them the visibility for for people that didn't know there was a group there to get involved in. So that's really, really important. But I think it also helps the, and this is not at every club, but, you know, those supporters groups supporter groups have an element of allies as well that have joined because they wanna promote the cause and they wanna learn and understand.
Gary Ginnaw:So that's really important because that that helps them filter into the rest of the fan base. Mhmm. So I think that's really important. I've I've probably had maybe 3 incidents where I've heard homophobic abuse at a Cheltenham game in, well, first game was in 1992. So Wow.
Gary Ginnaw:Quite a a small percentage, you know, a very small percentage. And, you know, I say all the time in the, you know, sometimes things might nest not necessarily be meant in a homophobic way. Mhmm. But if you say something, somebody's gonna hear different perception to the person
Joe Blomfield:next to
Gary Ginnaw:them and the person next to them. So it's it's how that word or those them and the person next to them. So it's it's how that word or those words or that phrase or whatever it might be made somebody feel. And, I think it's just, it's better education or more education. I think the clubs, you know, they have fans forums, you know, stuff like this is probably never raised because unless you've got somebody from the community on there wanting to raise it, your generic football fan probably just doesn't even because it doesn't impact them.
Gary Ginnaw:It doesn't affect them. They don't even see the importance of it. So I definitely think the clubs could do more in terms of trying to educate their own fan base. Each club could could obviously do that. I know the FA have got involved in campaigns down the years and, you know, you've obviously got Rainbow Laces and you've got football versus homophobia.
Gary Ginnaw:The 2 the 2 big campaigns, you know, around LGBTQ plus inclusion in football, you know, football versus homophobia this year, so many so many teams, professional teams dedicating games. Again, it does help to raise the awareness, but you also have that element of negative comments on those those posts. So Mhmm. People don't really understand the importance of it and the need for it, and so we've got to target that element of the fan base. I guess it's just a case of just keep banging the drum, you know, and and until we we start to see a change in, in perceptions, in attitudes, you know, that's all we can really do.
Joe Blomfield:Absolutely. And I think, again, it's we're going back to that view of the importance of education throughout the club and actually having all of these initiatives sort of joined up from either the players to football versus homophobia to sort of bring these together. And I think Bang The Drum is a perfect analogy. But when we're looking specifically at football versus homophobia, can you tell us a bit more about that and the importance of the campaign and sort of what it is and sort of that impact?
Gary Ginnaw:Yeah. Definitely. So, Football versus Homophobia, is a campaign that was born out of the Just in Fashion You Foundation oh, sorry. The Just in Fashion You campaign. I'm trying to remember the year now.
Gary Ginnaw:I think it was, like, 2012, or 2,021,010 maybe. And, it's a month of action now, you know, so the whole of February, which is obviously LGBT history month as well. So it's a month of of action of, you know, just raising awareness, sort of activation, getting involved, you know, promoting LGBTQ plus inclusion and visibility, both at grassroots level and in the professional game. You know, and Victor have supported the campaign for the whole time I've been at the club. Probably for 2013, 2014, they probably first got involved.
Gary Ginnaw:And, you know, grassroots teams will dedicate games. You know, we we'll have photos with a banner. We might share some player quotes. But I think the real importance is getting the professional clubs behind the campaign, because it's that that enhanced visibility. You know, if you've got maybe not 20,000 at Cheltenham, but if you've got 20, 30, 40, 50,000 fans in a stadium that see, you know, the professional players with the warm up tops, taking photos, wearing rainbow laces, you know, rainbow cap tins armbands, you know, maybe doing an interview or or or even a written piece in the program, you know, talking about the importance of the campaign and just again, it's just raising that awareness and that visibility.
Gary Ginnaw:And if you've got, you know, you've got 92 professional clubs in England and Wales, you know, in the Premier League and the EFL, you can get so many different stories out, but but hit so many different people, you know, within your own fan base. So that's that's really, really important, both for LGBTQ plus people that need that visibility, but also from people that aren't LGBTQ plus that probably really need to hear those stories to understand what the community go through and why football needs to change. So I think that's really, really important. You know, I was saying Victor have have supported the campaign for for many, many years, and I'd like to think that because of Invicta and Prowell Valiance, we've managed to get Charlton Athletic Athletic as a club, the women's team, and the community trust to really buy into that campaign, to do as much as they probably can during that month to just make sure that football versus homophobia are the the top words on people's on people's mouths during that period.
Joe Blomfield:Definitely. And I know that's obviously a campaign that we sort of worked together on this year, because of the university's partnership with Athletic and with the Victor. And I think that was what was really nice to see. It's not just what happens on the pitch, but the the sort of wrap around across the month and the conversations that it starts. Mhmm.
Joe Blomfield:Whether it be I know in previous years, there have been talks about sort of how to be a supportive parent if you have an LGBT sort of child that's interested in football, and actually facilitating these really important conversations as well, which any other time of year may not seem appropriate. But I think by having these specific campaign where you can do that work and it's again, it's why history month exists, why pride month exists. It is giving a designated time to really focus that educational aspect that I think is really amazing. I think being part of it will be homophobic this year, yeah, was amazing to see that as well.
Gary Ginnaw:Yeah. No. Definitely. And I think it's I think it's really good, like, you know, I talk about Cheltenham Flake always as a family club, local communities. And and when you've got the partnership from the university and getting university involved in that campaign as well, you know, it's really, really powerful and, you know, ultimately, when we talk about education, it's mainly just conversations, you know.
Gary Ginnaw:If if if if you can get somebody's personal story out and and and and then we might be somebody else listening at home or reading at home and it resonates with them, they're like, well, that's that's a real inspiration, because that person got through it. It means I can get through it, and there's not enough role models in the game, for people to look up to and think, well, it's okay because they said it's okay. You know, they you know, that's their journey, and I think it's really, really important to just share stories. I mentioned earlier about the sort of number of sort of allies, LGBTQ plus allies in Victor, which is pretty much half the membership. Those those guys are so supportive of the campaigns.
Gary Ginnaw:They I I'll probably really annoy them when I say, right, we need to get a photo with this banner and that banner and this flag and but they get behind it, you know, and they're more than happy to to do enough that that will that we can get out on social media that shows that visibility and that representation, but they also ask questions, you know, like, there's a little bit of our you know, we've got our own little sort of bit of banter going on within the team, but if if a new player joins, and they might be LGBTQ plus, they not might not be, but there's that conversation. And I mentioned earlier about, you know, learning from, people's lived experience, obviously, when the track some trans players that have been part of the team throughout through the years, you know, we only learn by having conversations and understanding the journey that they've been through, you know, the challenges that they face, how we, as players, teammates, but also the club itself, can help to support them on their journey. That's all education. Mhmm. But you've got to want to you've got to want to understand and want to get to know them and want to to educate yourself.
Gary Ginnaw:It's not just gonna happen without that want, that need that individual want, if that makes sense. And so I think it's really it's really easy to say that we need better education, but you also need the people that need the education, they need to wanna learn. And and how do we make make them want to learn? Yeah. Do you know what I mean?
Gary Ginnaw:And that's the difficulty. And it's not, you know, you see those those those lines all the time saying, oh, stop forcing it down our throats. Mhmm. But until you start listening, we're gonna keep doing that.
Joe Blomfield:Yeah. Absolutely. And I think it is. It's one of the the key things is realizing the importance of conversations and actually creating and I think this goes back to the sort of inclusive environment. It's actually what you're doing is creating that environment where it's okay to ask questions and actually having that sort of space where you are free from judgement for asking those questions.
Joe Blomfield:And you don't have to be worried that because you don't know something that you're gonna be reacting to badly. And that is again, I've seen it through the uni, a lot of the events we do with the LGBT staff community, allowing these spaces for people to feel confident they can ask something respectfully Yeah. Can be one of the most impactful things on actually trying to educate people.
Gary Ginnaw:Yeah. I'm glad you actually pulled up then because that was the other point I had in my head, was the, you know, we've we have and we tell players all the time that it's okay to get things wrong. Like, oh, I get things wrong. I don't know everything. You know, my partner Sam says it all the time that I think people seem to think that if you're part of the LGBTQ plus community, it's like plugging into the matrix, and you know everything.
Gary Ginnaw:Yeah. And we don't. And so we're gonna get things wrong, but if you can say, oh, it didn't mean that, can can you tell me why or what how that made you feel? What did I say was wrong? And those conversations that have happened at Invicta down the years, and that's how players learn.
Gary Ginnaw:And, you know, it's the same as on the football pitch, you know. If you do something wrong and the referee tells you off, you've got an opportunity to either learn from it, or you keep making the same mistakes, and, eventually, he's gonna send you off. So it's the same, you know, if you put it in the same sort of analogy, you you're gonna get things wrong, but it's okay to. Mhmm. But as long as somebody says, look.
Gary Ginnaw:This is what you said wrong, and you probably need to change how you how you phrase that, or whatever it might be. And so so I want the players I don't want the players to to have any fear that can't say anything, because they don't know. Mhmm. You don't know because you've never had that conversation. You don't
Joe Blomfield:know what you don't know. Yeah. And that is that was not your fault.
Gary Ginnaw:Exactly. Have the conversation and learn, and then you're better off for it. You can then take that home to your friends, your family, maybe your children, you know, and so it impacts everybody Absolutely. Absolutely. Through conversations.
Gary Ginnaw:Absolutely.
Joe Blomfield:One of the things you've you've talked about is, the impact of sort of buying from professional clubs. And actually, it's one of the things that I wanted to that I was interested in is to see if you think that progress made within football to sort of battle homophobia is undermined by when organizations such as UEFA choose for, for example, the men's World Cup to take place in countries where it is either illegal or punishable by death to B Gay or LGBTQ plus And I'm specifically thinking of the last 2, I think men's World Cups, 1 obviously in Russia, 1 in Qatar, both of which are accepting places necessarily actually, Qatar, there was it wasn't just that it was hosting Qatar, but then it was almost the banning of clubs to even be able to talk about that.
Gary Ginnaw:Yeah.
Joe Blomfield:Do you think that those sort of decisions do undermine a lot of the work that maybe grassroots organizations such as yourself are doing?
Gary Ginnaw:Yeah. Definitely. I think I think because, you know, at the end of the day, you know, UEFA have sort of had a a stance in in recent years, you know, their equal game, campaign. And it's all well and good saying the right things, but again, when we all know it, actions speak louder. Mhmm.
Gary Ginnaw:And so I think I think it was really disappointing, I mean, you know, Russia and Qatar were awarded the World Cups in 2010. You know, I remember I remember the day that they were awarded them. And he said I was going on a Caribbean cruise the next day, so and it was snowing. But still, and I think, you know, you're sort of an element of disappointment back then, but also thinking this is never gonna happen. Mhmm.
Gary Ginnaw:Like, there's never gonna be a a winter World Cup in Qatar. Mhmm. It's just it's gonna get changed. It's gonna get moved. And I think the longer the years went on, and the closer we we got to it, I think was probably just how have we got here was was probably the the biggest question that I probably had in my head.
Gary Ginnaw:And, obviously, there was a lot of conversations, at the start of the World Cup, as you say, you know, with the armbands and such and and not being able to, to talk about, LGBTQ plus inclusion. And I know there was sort of a big united stance from the GFSN. Like, we put a statement out that that all of our members signed, which was really, really positive and really powerful. I just think that it's, it was a bit of a kick in the teeth to the work we've done to to any any sort of LGBTQ plus organization. And I think for me, as a football fan, personally, you know, I've watched you know, I talked earlier about, you know, England 19 in 1990 World Cup in Italy.
Gary Ginnaw:You know, I've watched every World Cup since, and Qatar was just there was just an element of I'm just not really bothered. As a football fan, I just didn't wanna watch it. I I refused to watch the opening ceremony. I I made a point of it. I remember I was sat indoors on that Sunday afternoon, and I would refuse to put the channel on.
Gary Ginnaw:And but I also remember that the FA, chair came out beforehand and did an an interview, talking about the the the armband and that they weren't allowed to wear it and that they would do something else. But, I think sometimes you've got a, you know, you know, we talk we haven't talked about pride, but obviously, you know, pride is a is a protest. I think sometimes and I'm not I'm not a I'm not a vigilante or anything, but I think sometimes there's a there's a lot to say that, no, I'm not doing that, you know, and I'm gonna make a stand, and, you know, if England and, you know, Germany made a stand with their with their players, before one of their games, I think if England, France, Germany, Spain, who's gonna watch the no disrespect, but who was gonna watch, you know, the who's gonna watch the no disrespect, but who was gonna watch, you know, I don't know, 2 really small nations battling out in the World Cup semifinal rather than England France or England Germany, you know. So I think those those nations had an opportunity to to to say, this is not for us, you know, and and make a stand and make a protest, and and, obviously, they didn't.
Gary Ginnaw:And I think if one had done it, they all might have done it, and I think that could have been really, really powerful, could have been a bit of a game changer, but, the World Cup went and and has gone. And, hopefully, the next one, which is in USA and Canada and Mexico, you know, will be a lot better. I mean, me and Sam spoke several years ago. We've been together nearly 10 years. So, the Russia and Qatar were never gonna be on our list if we ever wanted to go to a World Cup.
Gary Ginnaw:Yeah. And I think, you know, Sam's quite keen to make sure that we can go to the USA Mhmm. In 2020 6. And and one of the main reasons for that is that in all these years I've been being together, the and we've been to Villa Park. He's a massive Aston Villa fan.
Gary Ginnaw:We've been to Wembley together. We've been to Charlton Games together, home and away. And the most inclusive environment we've ever experienced, the most comfortable we've ever been as being an an out couple was in Seattle, their pride game in 2019, and we just felt like we could just be ourselves. And so I think there's an element of wanting to go back to the US for a World Cup and just be able to be us, because we couldn't have done that in Russia or Qatar.
Joe Blomfield:That's really cute. That's a really cute story as well. And I think, actually, one of the the key things that you mentioned as well is the the process of the World Cup. But, actually, it's not as if a nation is chosen 2, 3 years before. But, actually, we are looking 10, 12, 14 years in the future.
Joe Blomfield:So I definitely think, from my standpoint, it was interesting to see how UEFA moves forward and is when they're looking ahead to 2034, if that's not already been announced. If not 2038, 20 however far forward we're looking in that sort of
Gary Ginnaw:Yeah.
Joe Blomfield:Decision making.
Gary Ginnaw:So 2030, I believe, and I I probably need to check this, but I believe it's been given to Saudi Arabia. So, yeah.
Joe Blomfield:Rep that
Gary Ginnaw:question there. And and, obviously, there's quite there there always has to be question marks as to as to how they are selecting these host nations. And, you know, I'm not you know, someone said to me in the past, I can't remember who it was, somebody I've met down the years, that always said, like, the World Cup should just be rotated. Germany, England, France, you know, maybe Brazil, maybe USA, and just keep rotating around. And there's an element of understanding that because the infrastructure is set up and Mhmm.
Gary Ginnaw:Etcetera, etcetera, but at the same time, you wanna give nations the opportunity to host it.
Joe Blomfield:Absolutely. You
Gary Ginnaw:wanna grow the game, but there has to be an element of, if if a country doesn't welcome every single human being, then it's it's not the World Cup is the World Cup. Mhmm. Therefore, you can't host a World Cup if you are segregating a part of the world, you know, an element of human beings that can't come and be themselves, just doesn't fit in with me. So you've got to look at the, you know, is that nation the right fit to host the tournament? And then we also have to throw in, you know, pound signs Yeah.
Gary Ginnaw:Get things done.
Joe Blomfield:Yeah. I think it's that selection and it is. Because obviously, their decisions of where to post the the the World Cup will never be based on where in the world is for LGBT inclusive. Realistically, that's never gonna be the deciding factor. Obviously and that's fair enough.
Joe Blomfield:That's not what they're looking for, host this and, actually, what can you do? But I think, again, it's going
Gary Ginnaw:back to what you say that how you wait for them to
Joe Blomfield:respond to that. Because if there is a time where you wait for them to respond to that. Because if there is a time where they're increasing numbers of LGBTQ plus football players that will be playing in the World Cup, then what happens there? Mhmm. If they have partners, if they have and they're they take their partners with them to the World Cup, what happens?
Joe Blomfield:And I think these conversations that UEFA need to be having with hosts. And again, it's looking at the impact UEFA could have that I think they have a lot of potential to create some really good conversations with these host nations, with the governments, whoever it is that is sort of in conversation with, that instead of doing that, they are stopping any conversation. I think that was what was most disappointing with the last World Cup.
Gary Ginnaw:Yeah. Definitely. I think I think you you hit a really good point there, and it's something that we talk about a lot in the, you know, all these campaigns, everything we do, everything we do in Victor, you know, the work we do with the with the with Charter Athletic. It's not just about us as grassroots footballers or football fans, the it's the the players themselves. Now there there will be players at Charlton Athletic, and other clubs within within England.
Gary Ginnaw:There will be players that are that are gay and or bi and afraid to come out. There are definitely gonna be players there somewhere, but it's also the staff as well. There will be Mhmm. There will be players, there will be sims of staff that are LGBTQ plus. You know, do they feel safe?
Gary Ginnaw:Mhmm. You know, they come to work. This is their day job. You know, in my day job, I can just walk in and just be me. Mhmm.
Gary Ginnaw:No one's no one's gonna be homophobic towards me. You know, but it seems to be accepted in in football. But this is their job, you know. And, and I think it's it's true what you said, like, you know, players going to the World Cup, might be a player, might be a physio, might be a coach, you know, I don't know what other roles I have. I'm trying to think off top of my head.
Gary Ginnaw:But, like, the non plain sort of side of it, you know, the the the England officials, you know, somebody might be LGBTQ plus there, you know. So do they feel safe going? So there's there's so many sort of questions to it. I'd really love to see a World Cup in Australia. Mhmm.
Gary Ginnaw:Goodly, because I know it'd be a great trip. But, but, you know, people have said in the past that they've applied for 2 World Cups, and they've not they've not got anywhere near the sort of final, the final vote. And is it because of where they are? But at the same time, you're more than welcome well, you're more than happy to have a World Cup in Russia, where I think I'm pretty sure it spanned, like, 8 time zones. Mhmm.
Gary Ginnaw:Ridiculous. And the amount of travel that the teams had to do is pretty much traveling halfway across the world from one side to the other. So, I don't always feel like, the decisions are are based on anything. You know, there's no sort of merit there. I think it's just, if, you know, if somebody's somebody says the right words Yeah.
Gary Ginnaw:You know Yeah. Yeah. You know where I'm going with this.
Joe Blomfield:Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think whilst this has all been, obviously, really interesting, really important conversations to be happening, obviously, there has been a lot that has changed, particularly looking in the last 10, 15 years. And do you think that things are definitely going in the right direction?
Gary Ginnaw:Yeah. I mean, yes and no. I think it's the best way of summing it up. And I think that's because, like, there's been a massive change. I've seen a massive change in in the lot in the 10 years that I've been involved in, obviously, within Victor, and in myself as well.
Gary Ginnaw:I feel so much more comfortable now than when I did 10 years ago. So that definitely shows an improvement. But, you know, but, you know, you see what's things that are being said on social media all the time. I mean, social media is such a toxic place. Mhmm.
Gary Ginnaw:We we had it just recently. So we, we were doing some work around, trans day visibility, and, obviously, you know, Invicta affiliated to Kent FA, and I liaise with their, their marketing team, and we were gonna get a post out from Kent FA just just highlighting, trans day visibility, the end of the football versus transphobia week of action that, you know, there's this grassroots team called charting Victor that offer a safe and welcome space for for trans players, and the post went out. I'd I'd helped write it here, so I knew what was going out, and, it was fine for a day, and then I remember it was it was Easter weekend. I was on the train down to Exeter to watch Chilton, and, all of a sudden, the the numbers, the lot the the comments and the likes had started creeping up, and I was just sort of monitoring it throughout the day, and then the message just got shared on a number of forums. 1 was in the US and one was in the Middle East, and, like, obviously, they were an anti LGBTQ plus forums.
Gary Ginnaw:And then the comments just the numbers just kept going up and up and up, the shares, the never negative reactions. This is all on Facebook. And I always feel like Facebook out of the platforms can probably be one of the better ones. I think it ended up having something like about 4 and a half 1000 engagements Wow. On this one post.
Gary Ginnaw:Kent FA had to stop the comments because they started getting quite nasty, and they were reaching out to us like, asking if we were okay. I was worried about them, because, obviously, there's this message that I've asked them to to get out for us. It's I think it was really important from the county FA to put out, and the reactions, obviously, were were really bad. So, but it ended up reaching people in the US that were then sharing it saying, oh my god, this is amazing. I didn't even know if teams like this existed, You know, what a great idea.
Gary Ginnaw:And so the message has actually gone to people that we wouldn't have been able to reach Yeah. Had it not been for the negative transphobe sharing these abusive comments. So they actually ended up doing the work for us and sharing the message further. So there's a as a again, that's a bit of a yes and a no anyway, because Mhmm. Yes, more people are being are are are the visibility of LGBTQ plus football has been heightened in the last sort of 10 years, but also so have the the negative reaction.
Gary Ginnaw:So there's there's at 10 years on, we are still not in a position where there are any openly gay or bisexual men's footballers in the professional game. So that, again, is that is the environment, or has the environment in the professional game got any better in the last 10 years? And I'd probably say no.
Joe Blomfield:Interesting. And one of the things that I did wanna actually mention that you you just talked about as well, is particularly looking at trans inclusion within football. Because I think over the past couple of years, particularly, there has been a increasingly I'm gonna say increasingly toxic and transphobic rhetoric that has really been focused a lot of the time on trans women in sport as well. And is there something particularly that you think that sports fans or players could do to be stronger allies to trans people who may be now facing discrimination when they're just trying to take part in football or a sport that they enjoy?
Gary Ginnaw:Yeah. That's, that's a that's a good question. I think, I mean, I've I've touched on it a few times, like, it's just about everyone being able to be their authentic self. And who am I to judge what someone's, you know, who who how what what your authentic self is or anyone's authentic self. So I think just making people feel comfortable all the time and talking to them to the person that they are, something that we always try and do and something I always try and do and, you know, I'm not here to judge.
Gary Ginnaw:I also wanna get from from a to b, as in birth to death, living my best life with loads of memories when that time comes to look back on, with loads of nice people around me. And hopefully, knowing that I made a difference to a few people along the way Mhmm. Will make me feel really good when I get to old age, which, obviously, I don't wanna do. So I think it's just just treating people as humans, like, you know, you wouldn't like being judged, so why judge somebody else? You wouldn't like somebody being negative or, you know, discriminatory words aimed in your direction.
Gary Ginnaw:So why would you do it to somebody else? And I think it's those sort of things. If you just sometimes sit back and think about what you might be saying, is it nice if it's not? You know, just zip it. It's it's it's quite simple, but, you know, my mom always used to say to me, if you've got nothing nice to say, don't say it.
Gary Ginnaw:It's simple as, really, you know. So those those sort of things. And, I think when it comes to trans inclusion in sport, obviously, you know, there have been a lot of things in the last few years, and it's it's really, really difficult, because there are some people out there that you're just never gonna change their minds. You know? They think their view is right.
Gary Ginnaw:You know, they use their platforms in a really hateful way. And, I think just making you know, if you can share things on your platforms and, you know, whether it's your own individual words or whether it's just sharing other positive stories, you know, and I know I've touched on it a few times about Invicta and the platform that we have with the club. The one thing that I think always helps to change hearts and minds is personal journeys, personal stories. And so we always use, especially the club's platforms. We you know, whether it's pride season, it's football versus homophobia or Rainbow Laces or football v transphobia, I keep adding to the to the to the list now, the diary for the trust, you know, Trans Day of Visibility, whatever it might be.
Gary Ginnaw:We try and share a really positive story from one of our members. And so I think just, again, that platform gives extra representation to the community, and earlier. She only earlier. She only joined in Victor because she'd been at the Valley for a game and saw us on the pitch. So if we'd never been affiliated to the club and never been on the pitch, she would never have seen her.
Gary Ginnaw:She wouldn't have got back into football. You know? And that's she's been back into football 6, 7 years now. She plays foot women's football now as well. So those sort of things happen, you know, for a reason.
Gary Ginnaw:We've managed to get affiliated, and we've impacted all these different people that would never have known we were there. So, yeah, I'm sort of probably going off the off the tangent a little bit now. But I think it's just those sort of things, you know, be positive, be open, you know, be willing to listen, be willing to educate yourself and understand, and also call it out. Like, if you see any discrimination, just call it out. You know, you'd want somebody to stick up for you.
Gary Ginnaw:So, you know, why wouldn't you stick up for them?
Joe Blomfield:Amazing. Well, thank you, Gary, so much for joining us on spill the tea. Before we wrap up, we have 3 quick fire ending questions to ask you. And the first is, what would you say is your favorite thing about being queer and identifying as LGBTQ plus?
Gary Ginnaw:I think being queer, I'm I'm awesome. I'm amazing. I'm me. I can have fun. I can live my best life and, you know, I think that's the that's that's the first time I've ever answered that question.
Joe Blomfield:So Amazing. And if you could choose 3 LGBTQ plus icons to have dinner with, who would they be?
Gary Ginnaw:I think Harvey Milk Yeah. Would be one I would definitely. I think Freddie Mercury Yeah. I definitely would. And Mark Ashton.
Joe Blomfield:Amazing. And then finally, what advice would you give to younger or newer members of the LGBTQ plus community, or even yourself if you're younger?
Gary Ginnaw:If I was younger. Gosh. No. That's fine. I what advice would I give?
Gary Ginnaw:I think, do you know what? Just be you. Just you are accepted. There are so many parts of of being LGBTQ plus, that make you awesome, and it's gonna be alright in the end. So just just do it.
Gary Ginnaw:Just live your life. Just be authentically you at an an amazingly queer at every opportunity and just have no regret no regrets.
Joe Blomfield:Amazing. Well, thank you so so much for joining us today, Gary, for our 4th episode of spill the tea. It's been amazing to speak to you and catch up with you. And if you, the listeners, wanna keep up to date with Gary and with Charlton and Victor, you can find him on Instagram at c a c t in victorfc or on twitter slash x at Charlton and Victor. If you wanna find out more about the Football V Homophobia campaign, as a whole, you can visit www.footballvhomophobia dotcom.
Joe Blomfield:And just thank you again to Gary for joining us and to everyone listening to the latest episode of Spill the Tea with me, your host, Jo Bloomfield. We hope you've enjoyed the episode and will join us for our next one. If you've enjoyed this episode, please do share it with your friends, your families or anyone that may be interested in listening and we'll see you again next time when we continue to spill the tea.
